--- Log opened Mon Apr 18 00:00:37 2005
00:07 < ojh> rxr: What I find rather interesting is Apple highlighting the presence of GIMPprint in its latest OS product.
00:10 < mnemoc_> re
00:10 < jeru> welcome back mnemoc ;)
00:10 < mnemoc_> hi jeru :)
00:10 < mnemoc_> jeru: will you commit your zope work?
00:11 < jeru> mnemoc_: hehe ... plone stuff is working ;)
00:11 < mnemoc_> :)
00:11 < jeru> mnemoc_: will commit soon
00:11 < mnemoc_> how soon?
00:11 < jeru> <=30 min
00:12 < mnemoc_> ok :(
00:13 < jeru> mnemoc_: thought you want to have tested packages ;)
00:13 < mnemoc_> yes
00:14 < jeru> mnemoc_: I'll commit soon ...
00:15 < CIA-9> rene * r8309 /trunk/package/x11-modular/xserver/ (. xserver.cache xserver.desc): * added xserver (2005-04-16)
00:15 < rxr> ojh: it was present in the last versions of OSX, too
00:15 < rxr> as is CUPS
00:15 < rxr> and kHTML
00:15 < rxr> and and and ...
00:16 < rxr> gcc, gdb, ...
00:16 < rxr> half of OSX is packed together OSS code ...
00:16 < CIA-9> rene * r8310 /trunk/package/x11-modular/luminocity/ (. compile.patch luminocity.cache luminocity.desc): * added luminocity (2005-04-16)
00:17 < CIA-9> rene * r8311 /trunk/package/x11-modular/ (luminocity/luminocity.desc xserver/xserver.desc): * tweaked xserver and luminocity priorities
00:18 < CIA-9> rene * r8312 /trunk/package/x11-modular/ (25 files in 23 dirs): * injected copyrights into the x11-modular repository
00:18 < ojh> rxr: Yes, I know. Its just gratifying to see Apple using products from the OSS world. Compared to the case of Not Invented Here and license-phobia that another software company has . . .
00:19 < rxr> yep
00:19 < rxr> too bad the OSS code in OSX is solid and the GUI and Apple Apps are annoying ...
00:23 < ojh> I gotta go. Latter1 :)
00:23 < ojh> Latter :)
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00:30 < CIA-9> chris * r8313 /trunk/package/zope/zope/ (zope.conf zope.conf.in): * added small helper functions for a generic Zope Product installation
00:32 < rxr> valentin: please rejoin #gsmp ,-)
00:32 -!- veki [~chatzilla@217.24.19.40] has joined #t2
00:34 < rxr> hi veki
00:36 < veki> hi
00:37 < jeru> hi veki
00:37 < veki> I am just getting started with info on T2. I am curious about it
00:37 < CIA-9> chris * r8317 /trunk/package/zope/calendarx/calendarx.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:38 < jeru> veki: why ?
00:38 < CIA-9> chris * r8318 /trunk/package/zope/cmfsubversionbrowser/cmfsubversionbrowser.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:38 < CIA-9> chris * r8314 /trunk/package/zope/archetypes/archetypes.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:39 < jeru> sorry started a bunch of commits ;)
00:39 < veki> I think that the basic freedom is also to build distros
00:39 < CIA-9> chris * r8315 /trunk/package/zope/atcontenttypes/atcontenttypes.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:39 < jeru> veki: you can build your distro with T2
00:39 < veki> I am running Linux center in Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro and I run projects that promote free software
00:40 < jeru> veki: great :)
00:40 < veki> However, in some cases people need specific distro for specific purpose
00:40 < CIA-9> chris * r8316 /trunk/package/zope/attachmentfield/attachmentfield.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:40 < CIA-9> chris * r8319 /trunk/package/zope/cssmanager/cssmanager.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:41 < jeru> veki: you can build your custom distro with T2 ;)
00:41 < veki> I think that building distros may help them a lot to keep their task / purpose clean and not suffocated by packages by commercial companies
00:41 < CIA-9> chris * r8336 /trunk/package/zope/plonesitemap/plonesitemap.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:41 < jeru> veki: ack
00:41 < veki> yes, I am aware that T2 is actually good to build custom distro, that's why I am very much curious about it
00:42 < CIA-9> chris * r8320 /trunk/package/zope/filesystemstorage/filesystemstorage.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:42 < CIA-9> chris * r8337 /trunk/package/zope/zwiki/zwiki.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:42 < CIA-9> chris * r8321 /trunk/package/zope/groupuserfolder/groupuserfolder.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:43 < CIA-9> chris * r8322 /trunk/package/zope/grufspaces/grufspaces.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:44 < CIA-9> chris * r8323 /trunk/package/zope/i18nfolder/i18nfolder.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:44 < jeru> veki: you're welcome to join t2-dev and helping to improve T2 ;)
00:44 < CIA-9> chris * r8324 /trunk/package/zope/i18nlayer/i18nlayer.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:45 < mnemoc_> :)
00:45 < jeru> mnemoc_: :D
00:45 < veki> I will contribute a smuch as I can. Iam not good deveoper as you are , but some suggestions amy be helpful
00:45 < CIA-9> chris * r8325 /trunk/package/zope/ldapuserfolder/ldapuserfolder.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
00:46 < mnemoc_> veki: any help is highly welcomed
00:46 < jeru> veki: we're just a few people so every help appreciated :)
00:46 < veki> Yes, thanks, I will help as much as I can.
00:46 < jeru> :)
00:47 < veki> I am planning to build distro that is based on educational software for schools. That distro is aimed for Roma kids here
00:47 < veki> They are poor, Microsoft is greedy and Rma kids as well as others do deserve to have software in their hands
00:47 < mnemoc_> veki: keinek want to do similar work for argentinian
00:48 < veki> that is cool, I am willing to cooperate
00:48 < veki> If any body wants to ocntact me please do
00:50 < veki> I will be often on your channel
00:51 < mnemoc_> #t2 and t2-devel@exactcode.de are the places :)
00:51 < mnemoc_> any question, don't doubt to ask
00:51 < veki> i will inform you these days when I will prepare one machine to install your distro and start adventure
00:52 < mnemoc_> :)
00:52 < rxr> mnemoc_: t2@ not t2-devel ...
00:52 < mnemoc_> oops
00:52 < veki> OK:-)
00:55 < jeru> rxr: still there ?
00:57 < rxr> yes
00:57 < jeru> do you have sth against changes on pkg_linux_* stuff in squashfs ?
00:57 < veki> I have to go to sleep, we will be in touch from now on:-)
00:58 < jeru> cu veki
00:58 < veki> bye, bye
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00:58 < mnemoc_> jeru: define 'changes'
00:59 < jeru> rxr: I moved pkg_linux*_post pkg_linux*_pre
00:59 < jeru> patches will be added to linux-patches
00:59 < jeru> kernel-header patched
01:01 < rxr> jeru: hm - I would need to see a diff
01:01 < rxr> maybe post it to the list ?
01:01 < rxr> I have to enter sleep, too
01:01 < rxr> cu then (in the morning as usual ...)
01:01 < jeru> ok ... sleep well
01:01 < jeru> I
01:01 < jeru> I'll send a diff
01:02 < mnemoc_> cu rxr
01:04 < rxr> ok - cu people
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01:13 < CIA-9> amery * r8338 /trunk/scripts/Download:
01:13 < CIA-9> * cleaned Download's url mangle
01:13 < CIA-9> * improved Download's url mangle to support manual://
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01:14 < mnemoc_> jeru: don't forget libsafe
01:14 < jeru> mnemoc_: the patch isn't ready yet <- yoann told me today
01:14 < jeru> mnemoc_: but disabling ...
01:15 < mnemoc_> prelude will release a patch for libsafe??
01:15 < jeru> mnemoc_: wrote a little mail to the ML
01:15 < jeru> mnemoc_: the patch is in testing
01:16 < mnemoc_> :)
01:16 < jeru> mnemoc_: but for now we should try to disable prelude in libsafe
01:16 < mnemoc_> ack
01:18 < jeru> mnemoc_: why the hell it doesn't include vserver patch now ???
01:19 < mnemoc_> .oO
01:19 < jeru> we had a similar problem
01:19 < jeru> before
01:20 < jeru> can I force a sth like a re-read for the pkg_linux*_pre stuff ?
01:20 < CIA-9> chris * r8329 /trunk/package/zope/plonecollectorng/plonecollectorng.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:21 < jeru> ^that is late ;)
01:21 < mnemoc_> jeru: rebuild the tools
01:22 < jeru> already done ... same problem
01:22 < mnemoc_> uhm
01:27 < mnemoc_> is vserver stuff on cached pkg_*_{pre,post} on TOOLCHAIN dir?
01:27 < mnemoc_> is vserver enabled on that config?
01:27 < jeru> yep
01:27 < mnemoc_> .oO
01:32 < jeru> == 01:24:14 =[0]=> Building base/linux-header [2.6.11 2.1.0-rc2].
01:32 < jeru> -> Parallel build using 4 jobs enabled.
01:32 < jeru> -> Compiler Cache enabled: 1.10% cache hits so far in ccache.cross.
01:32 < jeru> -> Reading build/.../tools.cross/lib/pkg_linux-header_pre.conf
01:32 < jeru> -> Including SquashFS (squashfs2.1-2.6.9) patch...
01:32 < jeru> -> Including UML Skas3 (skas3-2.6.11-v9-pre1) patch...
01:32 < jeru> -> Including Security Contexts (vserver-1.9.5) patch...
01:32 < jeru> -> Reading package configuration from package directory.
01:32 < jeru> -> Preparing build in src.linux-header.1113780252.14761.0
01:32 < jeru> -> Building. Writing output to $root/var/adm/logs/0-linux-header.out
01:33 < mnemoc_> what was it?
01:33 < jeru> this is an other target
01:33 < mnemoc_> .oO
01:34 < jeru> == 04/18/05 01:25:59 =[0]=> Finished building package linux-header.
01:34 < jeru> == 04/18/05 01:26:20 =[0]=> Finished building package squashfs-tools.
01:35 < jeru> mnemoc_: I think I've screwd up my default
01:35 < mnemoc_> so SquashFS and vserver now cohexist for linux26?
01:35 < jeru> yep
01:35 < jeru> there are problems on 2.4
01:37 < CIA-9> chris * r8331 /trunk/package/zope/ploneicalendar/ploneicalendar.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:37 < CIA-9> amery * r8339 /trunk/scripts/Download: * improved Download's manual:// message
01:38 < mnemoc_> 8331-8339 ?
01:38 < jeru> seems there are some pending in the queue
01:39 < jeru> perhaps my complete flush of package/zope/* was too much for CIA ;)
01:40 < mnemoc_> jeru: you commit message of zope stuff was out of our convention
01:40 < jeru> mnemoc_: what was wrong
01:40 * jeru hides
01:40 < mnemoc_> they are: * blah
01:40 < mnemoc_> and you just:blah
01:42 < jeru> oh sorry ... but it was indeed just bla blah :)
01:43 < CIA-9> chris * r8332 /trunk/package/zope/plonelanguagetool/plonelanguagetool.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:43 < jeru> mnemoc_: please forgive me my faulty commit msg's ... just wanted to have the stuff out ...;)
01:45 < mnemoc_> too much stress for you? ;)
01:45 < jeru> look at your watch and do a little math ;)
01:45 < jeru> hehe :D
01:47 < mnemoc_> :)
01:47 < jeru> mnemoc_: I know you're just 4h behind ...
01:47 < jeru> :)
01:47 < mnemoc_> 6h
01:47 < jeru> last time you said 4h
01:47 < mnemoc_> yep
01:48 < mnemoc_> but we changed TZs
01:48 < mnemoc_> me-- and you++
01:48 < jeru> mnemoc_: oh !!!! What is that ! ;)
01:49 < jeru> mnemoc_: should I send a svn diff to the ML regarding squashfs ?
01:49 < mnemoc_> you were GMT+1, and now you are GMT+2, and i was GMT-3 and now i am GMT-4
01:49 < mnemoc_> jeru: send only the real patch, the change in content. and comment you will move it to _pre
01:50 < jeru> ok
01:54 < mnemoc_> i guess you flooded rxr's MTA... i haven't got mails on t2-svn for many of them
01:55 < CIA-9> chris * r8333 /trunk/package/zope/plonenewsletter/plonenewsletter.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:55 < CIA-9> chris * r8334 /trunk/package/zope/plonepopoll/plonepopoll.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:55 < CIA-9> chris * r8335 /trunk/package/zope/plonersssearch/plonersssearch.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
01:58 < jeru> mnemoc_: I just do bad things this evening ....
01:58 < mnemoc_> uhm?
01:58 < mnemoc_> what was bad?
01:59 < jeru> bad commit msg's ... flooding mailserver
01:59 < mnemoc_> pff
01:59 < jeru> :D
02:01 * mnemoc_ emerging zope packages....
02:01 < jeru> go go go .... faster :)
02:02 < mnemoc_> that machine is doing the ref build, so.......
02:03 < CIA-9> chris * r8327 /trunk/package/zope/plone/plone.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
02:03 < CIA-9> chris * r8326 /trunk/package/zope/placelesstranslationservice/placelesstranslationservice.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
02:04 < mnemoc_> hehe
02:04 < mnemoc_> i'm not the only slow here
02:04 < jeru> hehe :)
02:05 < jeru> now we're 3
02:06 < mnemoc_> :)
02:11 < jeru> mail with the patch is out to the ML
02:12 < jeru> mnemoc_: perhaps I'm on the blacklist of rxr's mail server now ;)
02:12 < mnemoc_> nah
02:13 < jeru> == 01:28:18 =[1]=> Building base/linux26 [2.6.11.7 2.1.0-rc2].
02:13 < jeru> -> Parallel build using 4 jobs enabled.
02:13 < jeru> -> Compiler Cache enabled: 1.10% cache hits so far in ccache.cross.
02:13 < jeru> -> Reading build/.../tools.cross/lib/pkg_linux26_pre.conf
02:13 < jeru> -> Including SquashFS (squashfs2.1-2.6.9) patch...
02:13 < jeru> -> Including UML Skas3 (skas3-2.6.11-v9-pre1) patch...
02:13 < jeru> -> Including Security Contexts (vserver-1.9.5) patch...
02:13 < jeru> -> Preparing build in src.linux26.1113780496.25333.0
02:13 < jeru> -> Building. Writing output to $root/var/adm/logs/1-linux26.out
02:13 < jeru> -> Compiler Cache Hits while pkg build: 0.00% (0 hits, 1236 misses)
02:13 < jeru> -> $root/var/adm/logs/1-linux26.out -> 1-linux26.log
02:13 < jeru> == 04/18/05 01:54:43 =[1]=> Finished building package linux26.
02:14 < jeru> mnemoc_: but I can't find grsec ?
02:14 < jeru> :)
02:19 < javito> Yikes, Im getting a Segfault using gcc-3.3.5 when scripts/Config -cfg system
02:20 < jeru> javito: what host system you're building on ? gent** ?
02:21 < javito> yes, I think the problem is sparc64 is not on the list of uname -m
02:21 < javito> anyway, it should get arch=none
02:22 < javito> hints jeru?
02:22 < javito> line 118
02:22 < jeru> can you search the irc logs from #t2 for it ?
02:24 < javito> ok
02:24 < javito> lemme see
02:24 < javito> is there any link on the t2 project site?
02:24 < mnemoc_> jeru: mnemoc_: but I can't find grsec ? <--- ?
02:25 < jeru> :)
02:25 < jeru> mnemoc_: grsec will come tomorrow ...
02:25 < mnemoc_> javito: http://dl.exactcode.de/irclogs/t2
02:25 < mnemoc_> javito: use google over it
02:25 < jeru> mnemoc_: ehhmmm today
02:26 < mnemoc_> jeru: 'after wake up' = tomorrow
02:26 < jeru> mnemoc_: thank you for your advice :)
02:26 < CIA-9> chris * r8330 /trunk/package/zope/ploneexfile/ (ploneexfile.conf ploneexfile.desc): fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
02:26 < CIA-9> chris * r8328 /trunk/package/zope/plonearticle/plonearticle.conf: fixed conf to use the generic Product installation
02:27 < jeru> mnemoc_: and I thought master mnemoc doesn't sleep
02:27 < mnemoc_> i do :)
02:27 < jeru> :D
02:27 < mnemoc_> less than what i want, but i do
02:28 < javito> ye
02:28 < javito> found it
02:28 < jeru> have you seen the log in your other window ?
02:30 < javito> did I really need dietlibc?
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02:34 < mnemoc_> hi sparc-kly
02:34 < sparc-kly> hi mnemoc :D
02:34 < sparc-kly> hi all
02:36 < jeru> hi sparc-kly
02:37 < jeru> and good night all :)
02:37 < mnemoc_> gn8 jeru
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02:43 < javito> ok
02:43 < javito> scripts/Config -delete
02:44 < javito> scripts/Config -cfg minimal -nobashmod
02:44 < javito> now at least I got some nice menu :)
02:44 < mnemoc_> good
02:45 < mnemoc_> without dietlibc i hope
02:46 < javito> I must accept I am a NO fun of dietlibc but...
02:46 < javito> if I gotta install it,.. I will , you know..
02:46 < javito> s/fun/fan
02:46 < javito> typo 8-)
02:47 < mnemoc_> :)
02:47 < mnemoc_> why do you have an static bash there?
02:48 < javito> Ive just bootstrapped from gen**** 2005.0
02:49 < javito> emerge some sys-stuff.., very minimal..
02:50 < mnemoc_> ic
02:50 < javito> it doesnt even have cron or syslog-ng!
02:50 < javito> nor even silo!
02:50 < mnemoc_> pff
02:50 < javito> just a minimal kernel
02:50 < mnemoc_> how do you boot?
02:51 < javito> I was wanting to play with multilib, but then I changed my mind and went after t2
02:51 < javito> how do I boot? I dont!
02:52 < mnemoc_> :)
02:53 < javito> so, I need an unstatic bash right?
02:53 < mnemoc_> -nobashmod removes that need
02:54 < mnemoc_> but slowdown Config a bit
02:56 < javito> yep
02:56 < javito> everything that it will be built would be on a separate root?
02:57 < javito> ie: ROCKJAILING
02:57 < mnemoc_> it will be on build/$config-blah..../
02:58 < mnemoc_> you can mount something there
02:58 < mnemoc_> stages 0 and 1 on your G* enviroment
02:59 < mnemoc_> and from stage 2 inside chroot
02:59 < javito> ic
02:59 < javito> thnx
03:01 < mnemoc_> build a generic/minimal first, to get rid of your static env :)
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07:13 < rxr> re
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07:58 < rxr> moin minto_ !
08:07 < rxr> http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=10327
08:14 < CIA-9> rene * r8340 /trunk/package/x11/rxvt-unicode/rxvt-unicode.desc: * updated rxvt-unicode (5.3 -> 5.4)
08:15 < CIA-9> rene * r8341 /trunk/package/graphic/enblend/ (enblend.cache enblend.desc): * updated enblend (2.2 -> 2.3)
08:16 < CIA-9> rene * r8342 /trunk/package/network/apache/apache.desc: * updated apache (2.0.53 -> 2.0.54)
08:23 < CIA-9> rene * r8343 /trunk/misc/tools-source/ (fl_wrapper.c fl_wrapper.c.sh): * added a missing E to #undef of the new fl_wrapper.c*
08:37 < minto_> Hi rxr
09:01 < rxr> join #openoffice
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09:13 < rxr> sorry forgot a slash
09:13 < rxr> and it is /join #OpenOffice.org
09:13 < rxr> ,-)
10:16 < rxr> hm - OOO build finsihed ?
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10:21 < jeru> moin
10:21 < rxr> hi jeru
10:23 < jeru> hi rxr, have you seen the squshfs diff I send to the ML ?
10:23 < rxr> well - seen - not read ...
10:23 < rxr> I can soon
10:24 < jeru> rxr: don't hurry :)
10:30 < CIA-9> rene * r8344 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ (ooo.conf system-mozilla.patch t2-distro.patch):
10:30 < CIA-9> * the next OpenOffice.org integration step
10:30 < CIA-9> * named our distribution T2, not T2-Project and made modelled the
10:30 < CIA-9> definition more like the existing - added T264 for 64bit arches
10:30 < CIA-9> * do not use LANG=All - it fails to install - use en-US for now
10:30 < CIA-9> * added a patch for our system mozilla builds
10:33 < CIA-9> rene * r8345 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ooo.desc:
10:33 < CIA-9> * added Alejandro and me besides Juergen as OOO maintainers
10:33 < CIA-9> * clarified parallel make comment - OOO contains patches for this
10:33 < CIA-9> however it is not considered ROCK solid - thus we might try it later
10:36 < rxr> hm - now OOO fails during install due to missing hypenation and dictionary files ...
10:36 < rxr> 2.4G ooo-build-1.9.90/
10:36 < rxr> 31M cmd_wrapper.log
10:36 < rxr> 1.8G fl_wrapper.rlog
10:36 < rxr> 75M fl_wrapper.wlog
10:36 < rxr> 4.3M install_wrapper.log
10:36 < rxr> 1.9G total
10:36 < rxr> ...
10:37 < rxr> when it once fully builds without interruption I post the build time *g*
10:37 < jeru> rxr: the accumulated build time ? ;)
10:37 < rxr> on idea ...
10:38 < rxr> every edit compile cycle takes 5 to 10 minutes alone to reach the bailing out point again ...
10:38 < rxr> and e.g. this time I do not know when it stopped some time in the night due to out of disk space ...
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10:48 < rxr> jeru: on my 2.5 pseudo Ghz box over 12h ...
10:48 < rxr> likely way more
10:48 < rxr> as mnemoc_ told use the post build log analyzing of T2 takes 1h ...
10:49 < rxr> Successful packaging process!
10:49 < rxr> Installer finished
10:50 < rxr> ehrm people!
10:50 < rxr> OO stats up on my box !?!?!?!?!
10:50 < rxr> Whoohoo !
10:57 < jeru> really :)
10:58 < jeru> rxr: does OO work ?
11:02 < rxr> yes - starts up ...
11:02 < rxr> but wait building if you ever want
11:02 < rxr> I need to fix more stuff first
11:02 < rxr> and the last commit was not yet tested ...
11:02 < rxr> I just commited the patches I did in a way I hope they apply ...
11:03 < jeru> rxr: sorry ... I've no time to test building that beast now ;)
11:03 < rxr> you do not need too
11:03 < rxr> I just wanted to warn you to throw time at it ...
11:03 < jeru> and my boxes are busy anyway :)
11:07 < jeru> rxr: can I flush/regenerate TOOLCHAIN/tools.native/lib in some way ?
11:08 < rxr> rm TOOL.../.last_update or so ...
11:09 < jeru> ok ... thank you
11:11 -!- mnemoc [~amery@200.75.27.52] has joined #t2
11:12 < jeru> oh a mnemoc clone
11:16 < CIA-9> rene * r8346 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ooo.desc: * added thes and hyph files to the ooo package
11:16 < rxr> ok - next OOO build round ...
11:16 < rxr> ,-)
11:16 < rxr> around midnight I might be able to tell you more *g*
11:16 < rxr> and until then I must not touch the box *evil grin*
11:17 < jeru> ohoh ...
11:17 < rxr> I guess I need a cluster just to build OOO ...
11:17 < jeru> rxr: or you have to switch a gear down ;)
11:20 < rxr> ok 7.8GB free space - that should be enough to rebuild OOO ...
11:20 < jeru> rxr: if I count all the nice Compaq DL380 server machines (mostly Dual Xeon) this would be a nice cluster :)
11:20 < jeru> I mean at work
11:22 < rxr> .oO(would someone notice ,-)
11:22 -!- mnemoc_ [~amery@200.75.27.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
11:22 < jeru> rxr: I guess yes ... :/
11:22 < jeru> rxr: and mostly Windoofs is running on them
11:22 < jeru> rxr: what a pitty
11:23 < rxr> yeah - too bad
11:23 < jeru> I should migrate the boxes and using VM's for the Windoofs shit ;)
11:23 < rxr> xeons are already soo poor boxes - being just an Pention DX ... - and then they have to execute tis confusing Windows bitcode
11:24 < jeru> rxr: hehe :) but I think we'll get a DL38x Opteron Server soon ...
11:25 < rxr> Unpacking OO.o build tree - [ go make some tea ] ...
11:25 < rxr> ok master "build the world OOO script"
11:25 < jeru> but wait ... there is a AMD64 linux server too, but I've no access to it
11:25 * rxr off hunting some tea leafes ...
11:26 < jeru> rxr: hope you'll find some in the hell you're calling kitchen ;)
11:27 * jeru hides ... I'm not here anymore ...
11:27 < rxr> oh - my kitchen is not that much off a hell ...
11:27 < jeru> ok :)
11:32 < CIA-9> rene * r8347 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ooo.conf:
11:32 < CIA-9> * made ooo honour $prefix - choose /opt/ooo by default
11:32 < CIA-9> * extract the thes and hyph files
11:32 < CIA-9> * removed more unneeded \ quoted newlines
11:32 < rxr> ok - let's see how far this goes ... ,-)
11:32 * rxr really hunting tea now ...
11:37 < rxr> master clifford added my LFS patch to submaster *g*
11:38 < jeru> oh ... "god" did some knowledge transfer
11:38 < rxr> *g*
11:39 < jeru> have to move soon ... just waiting for finish glibc build ...
11:40 < rxr> so OOO building happily - /me back to news writing ...
11:50 < jeru> rxr: on which site you are publishing news ?
11:53 < jeru> cu later ... have to go
11:53 -!- jeru [~jeru@p54BFFA7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"]
12:05 -!- minto [~chatzilla@82-217-66-7.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #t2
12:54 < CIA-9> chris * r8348 /trunk/package/security/libprelude/libprelude.desc: * updated libprelude (0.9.0-rc3 -> 0.9.0-rc4)
12:57 < CIA-9> chris * r8349 /trunk/package/security/libpreludedb/libpreludedb.desc: * updated libpreludedb (0.9.0-rc4 -> 0.9.0-rc5)
13:02 < CIA-9> chris * r8350 /trunk/package/security/prelude-manager/prelude-manager.desc: * updated prelude-manager (0.9.0-rc2 -> 0.9.0-rc3)
13:04 < CIA-9> chris * r8351 /trunk/package/security/prelude-lml/prelude-lml.desc: * updated prelude-lml (0.9.0-rc2 -> 0.9.0-rc3)
13:06 < CIA-9> chris * r8352 /trunk/package/security/prewikka/prewikka.desc: * updated prewikka (0.9.0-rc4 -> 0.9.0-rc5)
13:07 -!- _jeru [~jeru@mail.oberlinhaus.de] has joined #t2
13:07 -!- _jeru is now known as jeru
13:07 < jeru> re
13:07 < minto> Hi jeru :-)
13:08 < jeru> Hi minto :)
13:08 < jeru> everything fine minto ?
13:08 < minto> Almost
13:08 < minto> How about you and your rabbits?
13:09 < jeru> minto: just 1 rabbit + 1 bunny ;)
13:09 < jeru> but we're also fine :)
13:09 < jeru> and your little dancing son ?
13:09 < minto> Fine, he is asleep now.
13:10 < jeru> minto: hehe :)
13:10 < minto> :-)
13:10 < minto> But this Sun AppServer is killing me.
13:11 < rxr> Freeciv 2.0.0 (Stable)
13:11 < minto> Manually installation is a snap, but when installing as a package it just hangs.
13:16 < rxr> minto: hm .-(
13:17 < minto> Yepp, hmm indeed. Yesterday I succeeded only once in getting it to install via Emerge. But it would not run properly. Since then I am out of luck.
13:25 < jeru> rxr: can I filter out e.g. "-DHAVE_LIBPRELUDE" ?
13:25 < jeru> I've to disable prelude support in libsafe for now
13:25 < rxr> sure
13:25 < rxr> var_append GCC_WRAPPER_REMOVE " " "-DHAVE_LIBPRELUDE"
13:26 < jeru> thx ;)
13:32 < rxr> hm - I have no idea why ooo fails in another place now ...
13:33 < CIA-9> chris * r8353 /trunk/package/base/libsafe/libsafe.conf:
13:33 < CIA-9> * removed prelude support for now
13:33 < CIA-9> Note: this is just a temporary solution till the new libsafe-prelude patch is officially released
14:05 -!- mtr_ [~michael@H8c7c.h.pppool.de] has joined #t2
14:12 < CIA-9> rene * r8354 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ (ooo.conf t2-distro.patch):
14:12 < CIA-9> * fixed to place the 2nd half of the config in T2.conf and not
14:12 < CIA-9> T2-Project.conf
14:12 < CIA-9> * copied the config to T264 for later 64bit builds (I already added
14:12 < CIA-9> a T264 patch target to the apply file with the last revision)
14:12 < CIA-9> * tiny white space tuning
14:20 -!- minto [~chatzilla@82-217-66-7.cable.quicknet.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
14:24 -!- mtr [~michael@Hadb5.h.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
14:38 < rxr> ok - I think OOO builds smoothly again ...
14:38 < rxr> the log is already 3.8MB again ...
14:42 -!- minto [~chatzilla@82-217-66-7.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #t2
14:43 < rxr> rehi minto
14:44 < minto> Hi rxr
14:45 < rxr> hm - I think we tag -beta5 with the OO changes in ...
14:45 < rxr> for PR reasons ... ,-)
14:45 < rxr> ?
14:46 < minto> Does OO build smoothly now?
14:48 < rxr> well - if it fails at the same place I'll see in hours++
14:49 < rxr> but it seems the last commit fixes the bug I introduced today ...
14:50 < minto> Cool, this definitely is a big step forward.
14:51 < minto> It will (I hope) attract a lot of attention.
14:55 < rxr> 8.3M /var/adm/logs/9-ooo.out
15:00 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 7651706 Jan 14 04:52 9-gcc.log
15:00 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 8931395 Mar 28 14:23 9-glibc.log
15:00 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9209732 Apr 18 14:59 9-ooo.out
15:00 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9867823 Feb 16 23:45 9-xorg.log
15:00 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 10350732 Mar 23 16:18 9-flite.log
15:00 < rxr> *g*
15:00 < rxr> of course in the end the log is around 40MB ...
15:01 < rxr> of course in the end the log is around 40MB ...
15:01 < rxr> oops - wrong window for arrow up
15:08 < rxr> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 11M Apr 18 15:07 9-ooo.out
15:33 < jeru> I think I can announce grsecurity support in trunk today :)
15:39 -!- minto [~chatzilla@82-217-66-7.cable.quicknet.nl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
15:39 < rxr> ,-)
15:40 < jeru> rxr: grsec patch applies cleanly now on 2.6
15:43 < rxr> hm - seems my tiny wire antenna used for dvb-t (30cm cuttedm from a power cable) does not scale in over the summer ...
15:43 < jeru> rxr: if I search for "vserver upon grsecurity" t2 IRC log is the first entry in google
15:43 < rxr> I think the filled up green trees suck too much of the engergy ...
15:44 < rxr> guess I'll have to haning it out of my window then ...
15:44 < rxr> when I brought the dvb-t card I also brought an antenna - however the receiving quality was poor, too and my normal house power cable cuttedn 2.5mm?? wire had better receiving quality ...
15:45 < rxr> yeah - we need to make sure t2 is getting the first google hit even more often ,-)
15:45 < rxr> I think I'll boot into OSX later on - to get 10.3.9 ...
15:46 < rxr> 13M Apr 18 15:46 9-ooo.out
15:49 -!- veki [~chatzilla@217.24.19.40] has joined #t2
15:50 < veki> hello
15:52 < rxr> hi veki
15:53 < veki> I am planning to build distro for the blind. It will be based on Oralux www.oralux.org
15:54 < jeru> hi veki
15:54 < veki> My idea is to prepare it for Serbian language. it is actually Knoppix based with some odifications. I think that KDE and Gnome are not needed to to the speech synthesizer that is audio interface
15:54 < veki> Hi jeru
15:55 < veki> So, that is not building distro from scratch, but careful choice of packages i.e. pine, mutt, lynx, vi, emacs, speech synth, emacspeak should be part of that distro
15:56 < veki> I found people who do have very big cluster , I think one of the latest models by Siemens Fujitsu and they are willing to free some time for compilation of distros
15:57 < jeru> veki: nice :)
15:57 < veki> I think that time-to-production-distribution may be relatively short due to the following facts: it is not necessary to build distro from scratch,, cluster is very very fast
15:57 < veki> we can together with you have access to it and build distro. is that OK with you?
15:58 < jeru> veki: at least for me it's ok to use the ressources provided by others to compile the targets ..
15:59 < veki> tey may be willing to give some space for you rmirror if you like that idea
15:59 < jeru> veki: but what are the conditions for accessing the cluster ?
15:59 < jeru> veki: sounds nice
15:59 < jeru> veki: where is the cluster located ?
15:59 < veki> there will not be special conditions, we can buid that distro together, maybe I willbe able to raise some funds to donate to your project. I can't promise but my ideais to do so
16:00 < veki> cluster is located physically in belgrade, but it is connected to very fast optical link
16:00 < veki> Thus, you can connect and do what you plan
16:00 < jeru> veki: that sounds great :)
16:01 < veki> distro is not big, and we do not need terrabytes of HD, I hope that his will be "beggining of beatuful friendship" if you recall that saying from the movie Casablanca
16:01 < jeru> :)
16:02 < veki> :-)
16:02 < veki> I hope that we will be able to start in May on that. What you think about that?
16:02 < rxr> hm - life starts to improve each day ...
16:02 < veki> yes, I hope so
16:03 < jeru> veki: sounds good ... but take the time you need ;)
16:03 < rxr> motoroala just called and wanted to negotiate a meeting on the Motorola conference in Berlin on Th ...
16:03 < rxr> I had no idea we have been on the guests list ...
16:03 < rxr> but it seems valentin and I have s.th. to do for th ...
16:03 < jeru> rxr: not bad
16:04 < veki> Our idea is to build distro that will help visually impaired people to work or possibly self-employ themselves by being able to send/receive e-mail messages, browse the INternet, write tex, calculate, administer the system etc.
16:04 < veki> I am sorry that I interrupt your other discussion
16:04 < jeru> rxr: have you noticed veki's offer regarding access to a cluster for building targets ?
16:04 < rxr> veki: you do not need a cluster to build your distribution - a kde and gnome less distribution will build on half or at least one day on a fast Athlon ...
16:05 < jeru> veki: don't worry ;)
16:05 < rxr> well - it depends on the cluster
16:05 < rxr> what software are the nodes connected with =
16:05 < rxr> ? even
16:05 < veki> OK, that is great, I hopethat we will cooperate in thefuture on bigger projects too so that cluster maybe needed. It is base SuSe Linuxd on
16:06 < veki> Guys who are there are Linux guys and very much familiar with our ideas and technical requirements
16:06 < rxr> what are the connected with? Mosix or exlicit cluster like Beowulf MPI, ... ?
16:07 < veki> I will check with those guys. I will invite the main hacker there to join this channel so you can ask him all necessary details. OK?
16:10 < rxr> sure
16:10 < veki> I have just sent E-mail to sysadmin there and asked him to join t2 channel. I am not sure that he will do that immediatelly, but he may join us these days for discussion on technical details.OK?
16:11 < rxr> sure
16:11 < veki> I will let you know when he will join us on t2 channel.:-)
16:11 < rxr> veki: are you working in a bigger company or government ?
16:12 < veki> No, I am president of the board of teh Linux center which is NGO dedciate dto promtion of free software
16:13 < veki> we are located in Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro, south from Hungary, North from Greece
16:13 < jeru> veki: hmmm ... you're quite some people I guess
16:14 < veki> we have a lot of fans and people who admire our efforts
16:14 -!- jeru is now known as jeru|shortaway
16:14 < jeru|shortaway> I'm off for some minutes
16:14 < veki> OK:-)
16:21 < rxr> 15M Apr 18 16:21 9-ooo.out
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16:27 < jeru|shortaway> ok ... have to reboot for testing my grsec kernel ;) cu later
16:27 -!- jeru|shortaway [~jeru@mail.oberlinhaus.de] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"]
16:37 -!- rxr_ [~rene@e178178253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #t2
16:37 -!- Topic for #t2: T2 | 2.1.0-beta4 RELEASED | The next generation of System Development Environments (SDE) | http://www.t2-project.org/
16:37 -!- Topic set by menomc [] [Sat Apr 16 00:33:34 2005]
16:37 [Users #t2]
16:37 [ _Ragnar_] [ javito] [ mnemoc] [ nzg] [ rxr_ ] [ valentin]
16:37 [ CIA-9 ] [ jsaw_ ] [ mtr_ ] [ rxr] [ tilix] [ veki ]
16:37 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal]
16:37 -!- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
16:37 -!- Channel #t2 created Sun Aug 8 21:15:33 2004
16:37 -!- Irssi: Join to #t2 was synced in 16 secs
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16:50 < javito> hi
16:50 < veki> hi
16:50 < javito> I keep getting cksum errors while scripts/Download -required
16:50 < rxr_> for which files ?
16:51 < javito> kernel 2.4 2.6 gcc
16:51 < javito> im on sparc64
16:51 < javito> if that matters
16:53 < rxr_> hm
16:53 -!- You're now known as rxr
16:53 < javito> calling svn co again...
16:53 < rxr> maybe s.th. on your system is defect
16:53 < rxr> the checksumming only calls stuff like the chksum program and such ...
16:53 < rxr> they are not part of T2 - so ...
16:54 < javito> ic
16:54 -!- tilix [~tilix@212.116.139.141] has left #t2 ["Konversation terminated!"]
16:55 < rxr> x="`cksum "$1" | cut -f1 -d' ' | sed 's,^0*,,;'`"
16:55 < rxr> javito: s.th. of the above comments is defective on your system then ...
16:55 < rxr> or your network flanky ..
16:56 < javito> I had a my DSL line burned by a storm but now its back to work
16:56 < javito> so no network probs..
16:57 < javito> will check my chksum stuff...
16:57 < javito> thnx
16:57 < rxr> well - not for that info
17:05 -!- veki [~chatzilla@217.24.19.40] has left #t2 []
17:16 < rxr> 18M Apr 18 17:15 9-ooo.out
17:29 -!- _jeru [~jeru@p54BFC853.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #t2
17:29 -!- _jeru is now known as jeru
17:29 < jeru> re hi
17:31 < jeru> btw, grsec enabled kernel is booting up :)
17:45 < rxr> ok
17:45 < rxr> http://www.vdr-wiki.de/wiki/index.php/DVB-T_Antennen
17:45 < rxr> ^- let's see if that one is more effective than my 2.5mm power line wire ,-)
17:53 < jeru> rxr: what should I enable in kernel.conf.sh for grsec ?
17:53 < jeru> by default
17:53 < rxr> XBlast 2.10.2 (TNT)
17:53 < rxr> jeru: ?
17:54 < rxr> MySQL 5.0.4 (Beta (5.0.x))
17:54 < jeru> e.g. rsbac package in T2 just enables the support itself, but grsec has a lot of options
17:55 < rxr> hm
17:55 < rxr> no idea - never used it ,-)
17:55 < jeru> but you should on your router ;)
17:55 < jeru> hehe
17:56 < jeru> especially for your modular kernel ;)
17:56 < rxr> hehe
17:57 < rxr> well - choose some reasonable defaults ,-(
17:57 < rxr> ) even
17:57 < rxr> and wire the important options out into a config.in
17:57 < jeru> ack...and I'll discuss this topic with mnemoc too
17:58 < jeru> do I have to place the config.in in grsecurity package dir ?
17:58 < jeru> will it automatically processed while you building an autoconfigured kernel ?
18:00 < rxr> all config.in of enabled packages are used
18:01 < jeru> ok
18:01 < jeru> :)
18:09 < rxr> 757M fl_wrapper.rlog
18:09 < rxr> 20M Apr 18 18:08 9-ooo.out
18:09 < rxr> == 14:05:53 =[9]=> Building office/ooo [1.9-m90 2.1.0-rc2].
18:12 < rxr> of course 4h is nothing - and it will take a lot of more hours ...
18:23 -!- PeskyGee [~Stimpy1@pool-71-240-25-185.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #t2
18:24 < PeskyGee> anyone in today?
18:24 < jeru> yep
18:24 < PeskyGee> Hi
18:24 < jeru> Hi PeskyGee
18:25 < PeskyGee> trying to use this for the 1st time and it won't let me D/L the sources?? Uses this mirror: Using mirror <http://nexus.tfh-berlin.de/~t2/source/2.1> but is not letting me get the files? ANy help please?
18:26 < PeskyGee> Another time I tried and it appeared to be working but it keeps saying "see curl manpage"?? I didin't see anything in there to help?
18:26 < jeru> PeskyGee: grab the tarbal from http://www.t2-project.org/download.html or use subversion for checking out
18:27 < jeru> or do you wanna download an ISO
18:28 < PeskyGee> Actually I have the tarball and setup my specs but its not D/L anyting
18:28 < valentin> rehi
18:28 < PeskyGee> Whats the URL for the ISO's?
18:29 < jeru> PeskyGee: http://nexus.tfh-berlin.de/~t2/binary
18:29 < jeru> but you should use the sources ;)
18:29 < PeskyGee> Yes I would like to but its not letting me
18:30 < PeskyGee> I do this: ./scripts/Config -cfg system and it does nothing. I checked the URL that its trying to hit and it does not appear to be up at this time. It also says that -mirror none is not used anymore
18:31 < jeru> PeskyGee: try to remove trunk/download/Mirror file
18:31 < PeskyGee> already did and it still picks the URL that is not working
18:32 < jeru> PeskyGee: do you have subversion on your box ?
18:32 < PeskyGee> yep I believe so
18:32 < jeru> ahhh no forget about it
18:32 < jeru> sorry
18:32 < jeru> what is the command that fails ?
18:33 < PeskyGee> ./scripts/Config -cfg system
18:33 < jeru> uhm ?
18:33 < PeskyGee> its trying to use: Using mirror <http://nexus.tfh-berlin.de/~t2/source/2.1> all the time and it does not appear to be valid.
18:33 < jeru> thought you wanna download some files ?
18:34 < jeru> have you configured your target using ./Config -cfg system ?
18:34 < PeskyGee> oops yes sorry goofed :)
18:35 < PeskyGee> ./scripts/Download -cfg system THis command
18:35 < PeskyGee> -require is at the end of but still won;t work
18:36 < jeru> strange ...
18:36 < PeskyGee> Deleted the mirror file and still dies
18:37 < jeru> can you try to get the actual trunk version of t2 via svn ?
18:37 < PeskyGee> command please. I can try
18:38 < PeskyGee> is this going to get the tarball again or the deps I need to compile?
18:39 < jeru> please check -> http://www.t2-project.org/download.html how to checkout t2-trunk version
18:40 < jeru> e.g. svn co http://svn.exactcode.de/t2/trunk t2-trunk
18:40 < jeru> will checkout current t2 sources and creates t2-trunk dir in the current directory
18:43 < PeskyGee> ok will try now. thanks
18:43 < jeru> PeskyGee: you're welcome :)
18:44 < PeskyGee> Can I move it once its D/L'ed? SO that i can place in a Part that has enough room?
18:45 < jeru> why you're not going there now ;) ?
18:45 < PeskyGee> I'm getting it now. BUt can I move the folder to compile on a dirrerent partition?
18:46 < jeru> it should work
18:46 < PeskyGee> ok thanks
18:48 < PeskyGee> got it
18:48 < jeru> :)
18:53 < jeru> PeskyGee: btw, what machine you wanna build on ?
18:55 < PeskyGee> XP Ath sys 2600 w/1GB
18:56 < jeru> seems to be ok ;)
18:56 < jeru> and what host OS you will build on ?
18:56 < PeskyGee> I hope :-) THanks for your help. On Lunch gotta get my butt back to work :-)
18:57 < PeskyGee> I'm using Arch LInux with now
18:57 < PeskyGee> THat should be ok yes
18:57 < jeru> hmmm ... never had some who tried building T2 on arch linux ... let's see ;)
18:57 < PeskyGee> I'll let you know
18:57 < jeru> hehe :)
18:57 < PeskyGee> thanks again :-)
18:57 < PeskyGee> cya
18:57 < jeru> no prob
18:57 < jeru> cu PeskyGee
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19:09 < keinek> hi
19:09 < jeru> hi keinek :)
19:19 < jeru> have to reboot my laptop after kernel update ... cu later
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19:33 -!- _jeru is now known as jeru
19:33 < jeru> re hi
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20:17 < rxr> 25M Apr 18 20:17 9-ooo.out
20:17 < rxr> 1.3G fl_wrapper.rlog
20:17 < rxr> hm - that will continue to consume CPU power ...
20:24 < jeru> rxr: I don't get the grsec kernel options automatically applied ... can you give me a hint ?
20:27 < rxr> what do you mean with applied?
20:28 < rxr> you have the config.in where you get the menu from?
20:28 < rxr> and the variables you specify there are present as ROCKCFG_bla_blubs
20:28 < jeru> yep
20:28 < rxr> you then use those to control the grsec configuration
20:28 < jeru> nope not ROCKCFG
20:28 < jeru> sorry
20:29 < jeru> I need a way to inject kernel options
20:29 < jeru> before building the kernel
20:30 < jeru> this is what mnemoc use in rsbac -> var_append conffiles ' ' "${pkg_rsbac_confdir}/kernel.conf.sh"
20:31 < rxr> I have not messed with this AFAIR
20:31 < rxr> but I would use just inject them via a hook in the grsec pre/post/... where you inject the patches or so ...
20:32 < jeru> not var_append ?
20:33 < jeru> I inject the patches in pkg_linux_pre.conf
20:49 < jeru> rxr: how can I use ROCKCFG_BLA_BLUB style for adding the grsec kernel options ?
21:23 < rxr> well just define the option as usual
21:23 < rxr> and add [ "$blablubber" ] && set the option using sed or so
21:23 < rxr> in some premake hook or so ..
21:23 < rxr> jeru: I'm in bed now
21:23 < rxr> took ad bath and off ...
21:23 * rxr needed some relaxing ...
21:24 < rxr> I can help in detail in the morning
21:24 < rxr> I'll be here around 6 as usual ...
21:24 < rxr> 28M Apr 18 21:24 9-ooo.out
21:24 < rxr> 1.5G fl_wrapper.rlog
21:24 < rxr> 68M fl_wrapper.wlog
21:27 < rxr> == 14:05:53 =[9]=> Building office/ooo [1.9-m90 2.1.0-rc2].
21:27 < rxr> n8 all
21:34 < _Ragnar_> omg;)
21:58 < jeru> rxr good night
21:59 * jeru is also off now ... entering sleep mode ...
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22:26 < PeskyGee> anyone know what package this is too so I can start compiling T2: Paranoia Check: Program 'makeinfo' not found!
22:31 < valentin> texinfo-4.7.tar.gz ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/texinfo/
22:32 < valentin> maybe you have it installed somewhere without a path to it ?
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22:33 < PeskyGee> humm ok thanks
22:39 < valentin> PeskyGee, rxr, mnemoc : can we somehow get the fist stages to compile without texinfo ?
22:40 < valentin> ie we just don't build info page stuff ?
22:43 < valentin> need to go to bed now, cu
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22:46 < PeskyGee> ok thanks
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23:31 < PeskyGee> Trying to get started here and having trouble. Looks like glibc-linuxthreads-2.3 is not availiable to D/L what do I have to do?
23:55 < PeskyGee> Is there a FAQ somewhere for this or what?
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 19 00:00:38 2005