--- Log opened Fri Sep 07 00:00:38 2007
00:23 -!- Brian|lfs [n=Brian@208-59-127-152.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #t2
00:25 < Brian|lfs> hello
00:25 < Brian|lfs> I just want to know why someone would take a good idea like T2 and make it so the default is to compile every package known to man?
00:25 < Brian|lfs> How would want that much stuff in their distro its dumb?
00:26 < Ragnar|away> who would make the selection?
00:26 < Brian|lfs> Also there is no documentation on how to block packages from compiling and why would controlling what packages are compiled be under expert hideing.
00:27 < sepp_> gets philosophical now :p
00:27 < Brian|lfs> Who would think the default templete is going to compile everythihng?
00:27 < sepp_> there are templates to select from
00:27 < sepp_> like minimal-xorg ...
00:27 < Brian|lfs> ya but how do you know what are in them
00:27 < sepp_> minimal and xorg
00:28 < Brian|lfs> Is there jsut one with xorg and gnome oir xorg and kde?
00:28 < sepp_> minimal does not mean gnome or kde
00:28 < Brian|lfs> my firend and I where making a distro togeahter and he came in ealirer and when my firend asked the same questions eveyrone acted like I don't know
00:29 < sepp_> i just answered his questions
00:30 < Brian|lfs> so is that a yes or no
00:30 < Brian|lfs> I would think xorg is just the base and xorg
00:30 < sepp_> there is minimal, minimal-xorg and minimal-desktop
00:31 < sepp_> + a desktop target with kde and gimp and such things
00:31 < Brian|lfs> what does minual desktop do
00:31 < sepp_> it has neither gnome nor full kde, but gtk and qt
00:31 < sepp_> to build things like gnome or some qt things
00:31 < Ragnar|away> if you want to fine-tune what gets included, you're welcome to make your own target
00:32 < Ragnar|away> (taking the minimal-* as template)
00:32 < Brian|lfs> how would I go about that
00:32 < sepp_> Brian|lfs: looks there -> http://svn.exactcode.de/t2/trunk/target/generic/pkgsel/50-minimal-desktop.in
00:32 < Brian|lfs> would I just edit the templete and add the deps for gnome and xorg and stuff
00:33 < sepp_> the lines starting with 'X' is what you get, should at least give an idea
00:33 < Ragnar|away> a good way to start would be to install minimal-xorg and then Emerge-Pkg kdelibs kdebase (for kde) and let emerge slurp in all the dependencies, then add those to your package list for your own target
00:35 < Brian|lfs> would I have to put all dpes or jsut the pacages for gnome and stuff and then the script would know what deps to get?
00:35 < sepp_> you can 'include' existing templates
00:36 < sepp_> use them and add things
00:36 < Brian|lfs> ya I understand that
00:36 < sepp_> or remove 
00:36 < Ragnar|away> Emerge-Pkg knows about dependencies, but when you make your target you have to put all the deps in by hand.
00:36 < Brian|lfs> oh
00:36 < Ragnar|away> (emerge may include stuff you don't really need)
00:37 < Brian|lfs> so if I make a target I can just isntall whatever I want to isntall
00:37 < Ragnar|away> yes
00:37 < Brian|lfs> with emerge
00:38 < Ragnar|away> well emerge builds into the running system ... if you want to make a distribution, you'll need to Build-Target
00:38 < Ragnar|away> but emerge can help you figure out the dependencies you need
00:38 < Brian|lfs> can't I jsut look that up on your site the deps
00:38 < Brian|lfs> for most shit
00:39 < Ragnar|away> good luck :)
00:39 < sepp_> emerge also has a -dry-run option
00:39 < Ragnar|away> with the dependencies also having dependencies that may take a while
00:39 < sepp_> lists what it would install ...
00:40 < Brian|lfs> so whats the best way?
00:40 < Brian|lfs> or the easiest way and most reliable
00:40 < Ragnar|away> as I said ... build minimal-xorg
00:40 < Ragnar|away> install that (or chroot into the build dir)
00:40 < Brian|lfs> that will have most of the depos
00:41 < sepp_> if you want a custom desktop distro, best would be minimal-xorg or minimal-desktop and then you add/remove packages
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00:41 < Ragnar|away> then run emerge in that environment, and note down what packages it would build
00:41 < Ragnar|away> add those to your target
00:41 < Ragnar|away> and build-target again
00:42 < Brian|lfs> oh ok
00:42 < Brian|lfs> so should I let emerge install the packages or jsut have it do a pretend and then I notate what I want to install
00:43 < Ragnar|away> just pretend
00:44 < Brian|lfs> thats what I figured
00:45 < Brian|lfs> why couldn't you guys have jsut used a pakcage manager that does deps better
00:46 < Brian|lfs> ?
00:46 < Ragnar|away> it's Hard To Do(tm) :)
00:46 < Brian|lfs> huh
00:46 < Brian|lfs> like this isn't hard this way
00:47 < Ragnar|away> it's quite easy when you know what you want
00:47 < Brian|lfs> ya but who would use a distro if there is no dep support
00:47 < sepp_> i do
00:47 < Brian|lfs> people if they need to upgrade packages are going to want to have to install a millon deps seperately
00:48 < Ragnar|away> that's what emerge is for (at least for me)
00:48 < Brian|lfs> it grabs the deps for you
00:48 < Ragnar|away> check for example the dependencies for subversion
00:49 < Brian|lfs> so are you saying emerge will upgrade stuff fine whats ints installed
00:49 < Ragnar|away> yes
00:49 < Brian|lfs> the problem is having installed first?
00:49 < Ragnar|away> with the appropriate options
00:49 < Ragnar|away> yes
00:50 < sepp_> the problem is that for the 1st time you have to figure out what packages you want
00:50 < Brian|lfs> but what happens when new packages are added
00:50 < Ragnar|away> check for example the dependencies for subversion ... cyrus-sasl2, openldap, wxpython ... 
00:50 < sepp_> but same is true for any distro, you get a dvd and then it asks you what to isntall
00:50 < Ragnar|away> you don't really want all of those dependencies
00:50 < Brian|lfs> or new deps I mean
00:51 < Ragnar|away> (at least not usually)
00:51 < Ragnar|away> so you have to manually prune the dependencies down anyway
00:51 < Brian|lfs> say I have a distro all built and isntalled then I want to install a completley new app
00:52 < Brian|lfs> so then do I manually have to install it until I make a new distro
00:52 < sepp_> no
00:53 < Ragnar|away> then you'd either, according to your deployment strategy: emerge it on the systems you need it ... or you'd modify your target, run build-target and copy and install the resulting package to the destination machines
00:53 < Ragnar|away> you can do either way ... T2 doesn't limit you
00:54 < Ragnar|away> you can also write a script that checks the master server for new packages each day and install those ...
00:54 < Ragnar|away> up to you
00:55 < Brian|lfs> did you have to write any templetes
00:55 < Brian|lfs> for yourself or are the defualt ones fine for you
00:57 < Ragnar|away> I use the default target since I also do development
00:57 < Brian|lfs> oh so you have every package
00:58 < Brian|lfs> is there any place I can find modified tempeltes that might meet my needs
00:59 < Brian|lfs> does T2 have a instalelr even once you things are on a iso
01:00 < Brian|lfs> instalelr
01:00 < Brian|lfs> installer I can't type tonight
01:00  * Ragnar|away looks at sepp_ ... I usually install by mine -i -R /mnt * after mounting the package dir :)
01:00 < Ragnar|away> haven't checked the install cd for a while :)
01:01 < Brian|lfs> wouldn't you have to tar -jxvg every package seperately 
01:02 < Ragnar|away> mine does that
01:03 < Brian|lfs> in terms of branding would it be hard to change everything to a name I want
01:03 < Ragnar|away> quite simple
01:03 < Brian|lfs> is there a script to do that in T2 or would I have to do it manual
01:04 < Ragnar|away> manual of course
01:04 < Brian|lfs> How would i re packge the stuff afterwards?
01:04 < Ragnar|away> hm?
01:04 < Ragnar|away> why would you?
01:05 < Brian|lfs> to distribute if I want to make my own distro
01:08 < sepp_> i usually burn a dvd
01:08 < Brian|lfs> of the files installed already
01:09 < Brian|lfs> oh do you re tar then up
01:09 < sepp_> t2 builds in a sandbox
01:09 < sepp_> if you run build-target
01:10 < Brian|lfs> so if I build a system and install I can run t2 and it will take the install and rebuild a target?
01:11 < sepp_> sorry, what is the question?
01:12 < Brian|lfs> I know what packages Z want and nio they build so how would I add graphics and other branding and convert them back into packages o the stuff could be put on a dic
01:13 < Brian|lfs> or would i be better off making a package with that stuff?
01:13 < sepp_> you would need to know bash to change some of the packages
01:13 < Brian|lfs> oh
01:14 < sepp_> i guess you want some desktop with your background and theme and such?
01:15 < Brian|lfs> ya and maybe say the nane iof the distro on boot and on the top of the consoles
01:16 < sepp_> well, i don't know how you do that with gnome or kde
01:17 < Brian|lfs> I don't eihte rlol
01:17 < Brian|lfs> I'm sure there is some hidden fiels that control that stuff
01:17 < Ragnar|away> check out how gentoo does that :)
01:18 < Brian|lfs> and probably you can do somehting like %username%
01:18 < Brian|lfs> you have a point why reinvent the wheel
01:20 < sepp_> you can add your own theme/desktop/icon package, but i don't know how you tell gnome/kde/foo howto use that as default
01:22 < Brian|lfs> does T2 have a tool of making your own packages
01:23 < sepp_> there is no tool, if your package uses make or one of there things all you need to provide is a description and an url
01:24 < sepp_> just fill in some meta-info
01:24 < sepp_> author homepage version license ...
01:26 < sepp_> if there is a configure, makefile or something it will run it and install it and it will make a file list for you
01:26 < Brian|lfs> my friend and I are having disagreements
01:26 < Brian|lfs> he thinks T2 is a wate of time beucase of hte lack of a package manager
01:26 < Brian|lfs> but I feel that if you have everythign you want in the target then why is htat a problem.
01:27 < Brian|lfs> my other point is why would you use another distros packages
01:27 < sepp_> i think the same, i only build what i want (not more) and then i install it
01:27 < Ragnar|away> preferably you wouldn't
01:28 < Brian|lfs> on the other hand it sounds like alot of work to get what I want
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01:34 < sepp_> if you select minimal-desktop you get a base with gtk/qt/firefox/gimp ...
01:34 < sepp_> not much to think about
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01:34 < sepp_> it will not take 5 days to figure the rest out (i think)
01:35 < Brian|lfs> does T2 have compiz fusion yet
01:36 < sepp_> there is Compiz 0.5
01:36 < sepp_> if that is the same thing
01:36 < sepp_> no clue :/
01:36 < Brian|lfs> I'm not even sure
01:36 < Brian|lfs> I know the latest fusion is 0.52 but not sure about 0.5
01:38 < sepp_> compiz.org :)
01:38 < Brian|lfs> How about beryl even though it forked back to compiz now?
01:39 < sepp_> yup
01:39 < sepp_> there are packages
01:39 < Brian|lfs> my friend is like compiz is compiz
01:39 < Brian|lfs> its jsut the plugins that make it fusion
01:39 < Brian|lfs> so its jsut an issue of if the plugins have to be the same version or onot
01:40 < sepp_> http://www.t2-project.org/packages/beryl-manager.html
01:40 < sepp_> i do not know that, i use e17 :)
01:40 < Brian|lfs> so you don't think it would tkae me 5 days to figure out the deps and everything compile smotth
01:41 < sepp_> no, if you have an additional question, just ask
01:41 < sepp_> unless you start with an empty package list it wont take 5 days
01:42 < Brian|lfs> I wouldn't do that
01:42 < Brian|lfs> would emerge give me the packages in the right order
01:42 < sepp_> if you include minimal-desktop you already have gtk+ and all things it needs
01:42 < Brian|lfs> or am I going to have to guess to figure the order out
01:43 < sepp_> if you add some other gtk+ app, most probably you are done
01:43 < Brian|lfs> what does minual-desktop have again
01:44 < sepp_> http://svn.exactcode.de/t2/trunk/target/generic/pkgsel/50-minimal-desktop.in <- :)
01:44 < Brian|lfs> its in front of me lol
01:44 < Brian|lfs> duh I'm ok
01:45 < sepp_> no full desktop but mplayer and firefox etc
01:46 < Brian|lfs> why isn't xorg in that file
01:46 < Brian|lfs> I'm confused?
01:46 < sepp_> # reuse the minimal-xorg
01:46 < sepp_> include target/generic/pkgsel/10-minimal-xorg.in
01:46 < sepp_> ^- that is why
01:47 < sepp_> it includes the other smaller template
01:47 < Brian|lfs> oh so some targets include other targets
01:47 < sepp_> yup
01:47 < sepp_> you can do the same
01:47 < sepp_> minimal-xorg in fact includes minimal
01:47 < Brian|lfs> it would have to for the base
01:48 < Brian|lfs> so the majority of the gnome deps in this minual-desktop
01:49 < Brian|lfs> I htought here is a shit laod of them I only see a couple deps for gnome
01:49 < Brian|lfs> unless alot of them are part of xorg?
01:49 < Brian|lfs> oh Ya I could jsut look in lefs duh I'm ok
01:49 < sepp_> gtk+ and all its deps are
01:50 < Brian|lfs> thats actually not a bad idea
01:50 < sepp_> there are >200 packages in the gnome2 dir ...
01:51 < Brian|lfs> any reason why they left the mplayer codecs out of mplayer in the minual-desktop
01:51 < Brian|lfs> win32 codecs I mean
01:51 < sepp_> maybe because it works only on x86?
01:51 < sepp_> i don't know
01:51 < Brian|lfs> I'm pretty sure there are 64 bit codecs for msot things
01:51 < sepp_> maybe you are not allowed to redistribute win32 dlls
01:52 < sepp_> only for realvideo
01:52 < Brian|lfs> the default templte has them
01:52 < Brian|lfs> I saw them downlaod last ngiht
01:52 < sepp_> the default has nearly everything
01:56 < Brian|lfs> wonder if I look in the main one if it has all the groups I want if I can jsut copy the grops of packages I want and createmy own template
01:56 < Brian|lfs> or would that be to many packages to deal with/
01:57 < sepp_> you could use that info
01:58 < Brian|lfs> after I have a template how does the ./scripts/Config see it so I can pick it?
01:59 < sepp_> it will if you throw it in the dir where minimal-* is
02:00 < Brian|lfs> I can be smart when I want to be I guess
02:00 < Brian|lfs> lol
02:00 < Brian|lfs> but you where beign smart with doing what you susgested also
02:01 < sepp_> :)
02:02 < Brian|lfs> I've never corss compiled before but if I want to optimize for a core2 and I'm compiling on a operton that would be cross compiling rihgt?
02:02 < sepp_> i am not sure
02:02 < Brian|lfs> so your not sure like me
02:03 < Brian|lfs> I never udnerstood how that works
02:03 < Brian|lfs> beucase if your on one archutecture trying to compile for antoher I would inamge it wouldn't compile to good
02:04 < sepp_> it works unless you have to run the generated binaries to work on some input
02:05 < Brian|lfs> thats all I wanted to know lol
02:05 < sepp_> like a python interpreter compiling files to bytecode
02:05 < Brian|lfs> so its jsut forceing the compiler to compile for somethign different
02:05 < sepp_> yup
04:06 < Brian|lfs> wow 
04:06 < Brian|lfs> I've been gone alkl the tiem and no one has talked
04:14 < sepp_> meep 
04:14 < sepp_> :)
04:20 < Brian|lfs> am I looking in the wrong temp I don't see the groups for the rest of the packages?
04:21 < Brian|lfs> http://svn.exactcode.de/t2/trunk/target/generic/pkgsel/00-minimal.in
04:21 < Brian|lfs> I thought if you do that template everything builds
04:22 < sepp_> pkgsel's support bash wildcards like 'O *' build nothing or 'X *' everything
04:23 < sepp_> that is why there is a 'O *' in 00-min at the beginning
04:24 < Brian|lfs> so how does it know to build every package known to man in that temp
04:24 < Brian|lfs> or am I missing somehting
04:25 < Brian|lfs> I don't gnome or kde or anything in that template
04:25 < sepp_> 00-minimal is not the dafault
04:26 < Brian|lfs> oh whats the default template
04:28 < sepp_> default is everything that is not disabled (marked with an O in the package .desc-ription)
04:29 < sepp_> but it is not a static file
04:29 < Brian|lfs> is that viewable on the ftp
04:30 < Brian|lfs> oh
04:30 < Brian|lfs> is there a way to view it?
04:31 < sepp_> you can checkout the source tree
04:31 < Brian|lfs> oh I was trying to see if  its grouped by deps or not
04:31 < sepp_> grep "\[P\] X" package/*/*/*.desc|cut -d'/' -f 3
04:32 < Brian|lfs> becuase if its group by deps it would make my life easier
04:32 < sepp_> ^- that will display the long list ...
04:34 < Brian|lfs> how can that many packages compile with no problems?
04:35 < Ragnar|away> not all do
04:36 < CIA-8> sebastian * r25934 /trunk/package/multimedia/openlibraries/compile.patch: * fixed openlibraries
04:40 < sepp_> would be nice if someone would have regular stats
04:40 < sepp_> :)
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05:03 < sepp__> no longer away? :p
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08:40 < rxr> re
08:58 [Users #t2]
08:58 [@ChanServ ] [ Dallur] [ happycube] [ netson99] [ sepp    ] 
08:58 [ Brian|lfs] [ dsoul ] [ kic-     ] [ pdinoto_] [ TobiX   ] 
08:58 [ CIA-8    ] [ emte__] [ mqueiros_] [ Ragnarin] [ valentin] 
08:58 [ cyda     ] [ Fatal ] [ mtr      ] [ rxr     ] 
08:58 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 19 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
09:19 -!- Ragnarin is now known as Ragnar|away
09:45 < CIA-8> susan * r25935 /trunk/package/gnome2/tomboy/tomboy.desc: * updated tomboy (0.7.5 -> 0.7.6)
09:45 < CIA-8> susan * r25936 /trunk/package/editors/tea/tea.desc: * updated tea (17.2.0 -> 17.2.2)
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11:02 < CIA-8> susan * r25937 /trunk/package/editors/texmacs/texmacs.desc: * updated texmacs (1.0.6.9 -> 1.0.6.11)
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13:45 < sepp> moin :)
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14:23 < itsu> moint
14:23 < itsu> ;-)
14:31 < rxr> re
15:03 < CIA-8> susan * r25938 /trunk/package/x11/fvwm/fvwm.desc: * updated fvwm (2.5.21 -> 2.5.23)
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15:21 < CIA-8> rene * r25939 /trunk/package/network/bacula/bacula.desc: * updated bacula (2.0.3 -> 2.2.2)
15:33 < CIA-8> rene * r25940 /trunk/package/develop/libtasn1/libtasn1.desc: * updated libtasn1 (1.0 -> 1.1)
15:35 < CIA-8> rene * r25941 /trunk/package/python/itools/itools.desc: * updated itools (0.16.7 -> 0.16.8)
15:35 < CIA-8> rene * r25942 /trunk/package/games/freedroid_rpg/freedroid_rpg.desc: * updated freedroid_rpg (0.10.2 -> 0.10.3)
15:58 < cyda> moin
16:03 < sepp> moin cyda 
16:56 < rxr> moin moin
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20:20 < LMJ_p> hi
20:21 -!- yokoy [n=yokoy@e178072148.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #t2
20:22 < LMJ_p> I just pluged a new Nvidia 8600 card which is not supported by old nvidia drivers like 97xx, I have to update to 100.x    How I can do cleanly that with t2 ?*
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20:29 < LMJ_p> If I need to install nvidia drivers, I need the source of the kernel I'm running, I wonder how to get them
20:47 -!- DeeKey [n=denis@84-50-23-207-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee] has joined #t2
20:48 < rxr> we  have a nvidia package you want to use it .-)
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20:48 < DeeKey> Hello!
20:48 < LMJ_p> hi
20:48 < rxr> if you want the sources (really you rather do not want to) you can enable leaving the lingering sources around in /usr/src/linux-* in the config menu
20:48 < rxr> but for most joy just enable the nvidia package and build your kernelk
20:48 < rxr> this way you get the matching nvidia module alway
20:49 < LMJ_p> emerged the fresh kernel 2.6.22.5 
20:49 < LMJ_p> I used stone to update menu.lst
20:49 < LMJ_p> i'm trying to boot : BIOS info, then i can see grub menu during 1sec and then, online the blinking cursor at the top
20:49 < LMJ_p> arg, wtf
20:50 < LMJ_p> only*
20:50 < LMJ_p> I have the package nvidia available already, but the T2 nvidia package is not up to date
20:53 < LMJ_p> fuck, what the hell
20:55 < sepp> ./scripts/Update-Pkg nvidia 100.14.11
20:55 < sepp> ./scripts/Emerge-Pkg -cfg ... linux26
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21:01 < rxr> LMJ_p: if your boot cripples your VGA output, then remove the nvidia / riva *.ko modules in /lib/modules*
21:01 < rxr> the nvidiafb.ko (or what it was named) also messes up our new Mac Pro on boot
21:01 < rxr> LMJ_p: I also removed it locally, but probably it's a good idea to list those two modules as "disable_broken" on x86/x86-64
21:02 < rxr> I know some PowerBooks require it for functional graphic at all and it hopefully still works with those older chips
21:02 < rxr> so - I really^3 have to get lunch, now
21:02 < rxr> oh and btw, we'll be out of office next week for work abroad, ...
21:02 < rxr> presense here will be rare and time-shifted
21:02 < rxr> cu then
21:04 < DeeKey> cu rxr
21:06 < LMJ_p> cu rxr 
21:06 < LMJ_p> hello sepp 
21:10 < LMJ_p> great, my pc boot : BIOS, grub menu during 1 sec, then a blinking cursor and that's all
21:10 < LMJ_p> My default grub timeout is 8sec
21:10 < LMJ_p> what's happeningggggggg
21:11 < CIA-8> rene * r25943 /trunk/package/base/libelf/libelf.desc: * updated libelf (0.8.9 -> 0.8.10)
21:15 < CIA-8> rene * r25944 /trunk/package/network/apache/apache.desc: * updated apache (2.2.4 -> 2.2.6)
21:15 < CIA-8> rene * r25945 /trunk/package/gnome2/termit/termit.desc: * updated termit (1.0.1 -> 1.0.2)
21:15 < CIA-8> rene * r25946 /trunk/package/base/pcre/pcre.desc: * updated pcre (7.2 -> 7.3)
21:18 < LMJ_p> great, now, it goes through the BIOS, come to the grub menu during half a second and then, blinking cursors and reboot
21:18 < LMJ_p> what the *************
21:19 < LMJ_p> echap or arrows do nothing
21:24 < sepp> ?
21:32 < LMJ_p> ¿
21:32 < LMJ_p> ok, my main PC is down :-/
21:35 < LMJ_p> gtg
21:36 < LMJ_p> CU tomorrow
21:48 < sepp> c u
22:04 -!- itsu [n=user@i577BAD03.versanet.de] has left #t2 []
22:53 < yokoy> hi,
22:54 < yokoy> I just saw that autoconf-2.61 is the corrent version since nearly one year
22:54 < yokoy> is there a reason that t2 still use 2.59?
22:57 -!- sepp [n=sepp@Z51cf.z.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
--- Log closed Sat Sep 08 00:00:10 2007